Diala Shamas is a senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights. She joins host Rafa Kidvai to talk about the impact of state surveillance on Muslim communities and some of the unseen harms that come from the criminalization of a people based on their identity. The discussion highlights the intersection of surveillance with the reproductive justice movement and the broader implications for marginalized communities.
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Rafa Kidvai: This is Nobody Criminalized. How the state controls our bodies, families and communities. I'm Rafa Kidvai, director of the Repro Legal Defense Fund at If/When/ How. On our podcast, we talk with experts, activists and advocates whose daily work intersects with reproductive justice and the state's targeting of marginalized communities. The founding mothers of reproductive justice in the United States define the term as the human rights to maintain personal bodily autonomy, have children, not have children, and parent the children we have in safe and sustainable communities.
You will hear us restate the shared commitment throughout our interviews because regardless of the issues guests focus on, that is ultimately the world we all intend to create. Our guest today is Diala Shamas. Diala is a human rights attorney and senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional Rights. We began our conversation by delving into Diala's personal journey from Palestine to the United States, and how her experience shaped her dedication to defending civil rights.
Diala Shamas: Shortly after I joined the CLEAR Project, that's the Creating Law Enforcement Accountability and Responsibility Project, the Associated Press published a whole series of internal leaked NYPD documents that showed that the New York Police Department had been secretly surveilling Muslim communities across the city. They were sending informants into coffee shops, into Muslim students' associations, monitoring how people prayed. So, really jarring and in many ways for these communities was a confirmation of what they knew, although they didn't know that level of detail. And one of the things that we wanted to do as there were all these discussions and debates about the merits of this program, was to talk about the harm. And one of the challenges of talking about the harms of surveillance actually is, it's really difficult to measure. Surveillance is covert. Oftentimes you don't by definition know that it's happening.
And so there are these ways that the law has developed to specifically measure impacts of harms. Like your organization was losing X amount of dollars or memberships in mosques dropped. And we could certainly do that and we did set about to do that because we were litigating that challenge. But the part that was always bugging us is that we haven't even started to see the extent of the harms. That only captures such a small fraction of what it means to be under constant state surveillance and to be criminalized in that way. We have yet to see the full effect of what even that single surveillance program had. How many people changed their career paths? What did it mean for personal relationships? What sort of trust issues developed in the cumulative way and how that affects people's behavior in their life? Sort of long-term impacts of state surveillance are impossible to measure and know. And it's just something that I think about a lot and I know a lot of folks have tried different ways to measure, but it's really how we talk about these things.
Rafa Kidvai: Like a permeating sort of culture of fear in someone's life and it taking over all the sort of mundane things also. What motivated you to take on this kind of work? And I'm talking in particular about challenging state surveillance by the government.
Diala Shamas: I came to the US for law school from Palestine, and I thought that I would go back to Palestine after getting my law degree. But in law school and spending time in the US, so much of the post-9/11 world really resonated with my own experiences and working through a clinical program at the law school with folks who are being targeted by the war on terror, I just saw all these continuities and that's what set me off on my career path, and I guess what is sometimes called the national security space. But really just working with Muslim communities and communities that are perceived to be Muslim, as they face a whole slew of state surveillance and law enforcement harassment, and targeting, and other things. And of course as a Palestinian, all of that felt deeply familiar in that very basic way. I understood what martial law looks like. I understand what being viewed as inherently suspicious feels like and I gravitated towards that work here and that set me off on this career path, 10 years later, here I am.
Rafa Kidvai: And for those who might not be familiar, what exactly are the logistics of state surveillance? What does it mean to be considered a national security threat? How does that typically manifest in the United States for someone?
Diala Shamas: It permeates every aspect of life. The state surveillance, I think is traditionally thought about in law enforcement terms and I think, especially, post Snowden leaks and more general awareness of surveillance, people think about big data surveillance or surveillance of phone and internet activity and that sort of thing. In the communities that I work with, Palestinian communities, Arab, Muslim, immigrant communities, a lot of it is also just very direct surveillance, law enforcement knocking at your door and asking you questions. The FBI calls these so-called, voluntary interviews, although there's nothing that feels voluntary about them, asking you questions about your political beliefs, your political activities, your associations. It also happens at other points of interactions with the state and law enforcement. And borders is another common site of surveillance. Folks who get stopped at the border and extensively questioned, asked similar questions about whether it's their travels, but also their political activity, religious beliefs and so on.
Surveillance is such a broad category. Arguably everything, all law enforcement activity is somewhere on a spectrum of surveillance. It's the cop car outside your house, it's the cop cameras outside the mosque or outside the corner store. It's the sort of constant monitoring of social media and every aspect of our lives. It really permeates everything. But there are some communities that are more targeted by surveillance than others. And this idea of the color of surveillance and who's closer in the concentric circles. We're all watched, to some extent or another. If you use an app, you're being watched. But some people are deliberately targeted for that watching, whereas others are swept up as we try to do the less tailored monitoring. So, I think being aware of those concentric circles of surveillance and who's the most vulnerable, who's the most acutely impacted in the US, those are black and brown communities, Muslim communities, but also other marginalized identities. Sex workers are certainly subject to extensive surveillance. Other groups that are criminalized, basically.
Rafa Kidvai: Got you. And how do you see the intersection of state surveillance with reproductive justice issues, for instance?
Diala Shamas: One of the more vivid memories I have of these aha moments was, actually, when we had this incredible intern at CCR where I work, their name is Lorelei Lee and a very prominent sex worker, activist, advocate, organizer. We tasked Lorelei with helping us as we were advising Palestinian organizations at the time, who were subject to all of these restrictions on their transactions and on their fundraising, and their social media activity, as a result of being designated "terrorists" by Israel and all of the knockoff effects that would have in the US. And I remember Lorelei looking at this and really digging into what these organizations were experiencing and the whole slew of consequences to that designation and was like, this is really similar to sex workers and how sex workers are not able to open bank accounts, and our deep platform constantly in all of these different ways as part of this criminalization of sex work, and all of the ways in which it's restricted and there's all of this over-regulation of that space.
And I had never thought about that nexus at all. And so that got us thinking about building our understanding of surveillance and getting outside of the really narrow silo, oftentimes, that we're in, when we think about surveillance in the Palestine context or specifically terrorism and anti-terrorism laws, and who those impact primarily. And actually realizing that we see a lot of the same things in different spaces and we should probably be thinking a little bit more systemically around the solutions that we're trying to put forward and the advocacy that we're doing.
Rafa Kidvai: I think what I also want to hear about a little bit is how this sort of repression and dehumanization that state surveillance creates. How does that shape our communities? How does that shape our culture and impact our community members?
Diala Shamas: There's the unknown ways in which state surveillance and what comes with it, this sense of constantly being watched and fears of being infiltrated, and the sort of, when your identity is criminalized and you don't really have any way to get out from under that. It ends up altering behavior and social fabric, and fraying relationships in ways that, again, are impossible to really fully grasp and measure. In the context of the criminalization of Muslim identity post-9/11 in the United States, we actually have these law enforcement reports that say markers of Muslim identity, of Muslim bodies, growing a beard or wearing certain kinds of clothing were equated with potential indicators of radicalization.
And so if that's the proposition then with people who rightly are concerned about drawing state attention and scrutiny, will then try to move away from those identities and not overtly appear Muslim, for example. Stop wearing the hijab or stop frequenting certain mosques, all sorts of ways in which if you know what the state is viewing as criminal and you're trying to avoid that, then you're going to move away from it. People who are viewed as likely to be surveilled, like their friends or their relatives will no longer want to be interacting with them. We hear about that all the time when I was at CLEAR. The sort of social consequences, familial consequences of state surveillance are really dramatic. That's all the sort of lesser known pieces, the parts that are harder to wrap your head around.
Rafa Kidvai: We talk about that so much when it comes to incarceration, which is that, fundamentally, you are weakening communities with this repression as a tactic to of derail them and limit movements sometimes.
Diala Shamas: And then it becomes a sort of self-censorship where, I could tell you in the context of Palestine, every day, I, myself, we know how closely monitored certain forms of speech around Palestine are. We know that there are these really restrictive laws in the United States that feel all encompassing and it does result in very real self-policing. And so the state is no longer doing the work when you're just avoiding entire areas of conversations, entire forms of activism and thought.
Rafa Kidvai: Yes. Absolutely. And it shapes the kind of culture of fear, which means that you, even if that's, it doesn't even matter if the specific thing that someone is afraid of is true or not, it fundamentally has still shifted how you engage with it because you're so afraid about the potential of it. When you look back at your work, what are some of your most significant achievements in the field and what's something that you hope to accomplish moving forward?
Diala Shamas: I think that for me right now, this question, I might've answered it differently had you asked me eight months ago, but since October, 2023, I've really been so hyper fixated on Palestine for all the obvious reasons. And I think that we've come a really long way in de-exceptionalizing Palestine. For the longest time it was really, literally, we have a report called the Palestine Exception that this, an issue area that was viewed as toxic and too complicated, and out of the bounds of a lot of social justice movements and mainstream conversations. And those of us who are working on Palestine or wanting to talk about Palestine, we're not really actually welcome in a lot of spaces. And I think that part of this work of really understanding how we got here is how Palestine is at the origin stories of US terrorism laws and also how, if you want to understand what's happening in Cop City in Atlanta, you need to happen you need to understand where those laws came from.
And I think a lot of that work is really, and it's not just mine, so many of us who've been working on this for so long, it's bearing food in this moment where I think people get the connections so much more. We still have a long way to go, of course. And we of course know that speaking out about Palestine is still something that subjects you to incredible state repression, as well as private forms of repression. And let's not forget about those too. But I do think that we come a long way and it's unfortunate that it took this level of crisis, a genocide and watching it unfold every day on our phones to, I think, move past some that kind of exceptionalism, historically.
Rafa Kidvai: Your work is obviously difficult and I guess you work around such heavy subjects, and I'm wondering how've you been taking care of yourself?
Diala Shamas: A $1 million question. I never know the answer to this question. I think that I try to sleep when I can and when I really need a break and when I can get away from just work, I've been getting so much energy from going to places where communities are gathering. I think that being in those kinds of spaces is really invigorating, and that's been the primary source of energy and there's been so much, I think, increased mobilization and awareness, and again, drawing of these kinds of connections that that's what really keeps me going. And sleep.
Rafa Kidvai: That's exactly what happens when you get too stimulated is that your body's like, I want to be catatonic in this moment and actually it forces you to sleep. So, I'm glad you're getting it. Lastly, our podcast is called Nobody Criminalized, and I'm wondering what that phrase means to you, especially in the context of your work, challenging state surveillance and advocating for human rights?
Diala Shamas: I love the title of this podcast because of the play on words, but for me it's really about bodies and what symbolize being criminalized. And this notion that when we equate certain bodies with a threat, when certain kinds of bodies and behaviors are just marked as inherently more dangerous or having a heightened level of risk or potential for criminal activity, and then we mark them for surveillance, that is exactly what the criminalization of bodies is. Whether it's marking Muslim identities for heightened state surveillance, whether it's marking Palestinian identity as sort of inherently violent or prone to terrorism, it's marking black bodies as deserving of more force or fear. And all of this triggers the state logic of oppression, and that's exactly what that means to me. Surveillance and criminalization are absolutely two sides of the same coin.
Rafa Kidvai: Thank you, Diala. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for bringing all of your wisdom and knowledge.
Diala Shamas: Thanks so much for having me.
Rafa Kidvai: Here are some takeaways from our conversation. Surveillance programs like the NYPD's secret monitoring of Muslim communities have profound impacts on individuals' lives. But the full extent of those harms is hard to measure. Diala talked about the challenges of addressing surveillance in her work and the importance of community awareness and legal advocacy. She also explained how surveillance in the United States is similar to what happens in Palestine and why understanding these similarities is crucial for fighting against the oppressive policies and practices.
Diala Shamas is a senior staff attorney at the Center for Constitutional rights. You can follow Diala on X, formerly known as Twitter @dialash. I'm Rafa Kidvai, the host of this podcast and director of the Repro Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How. The Repro Legal Defense Fund funds bail and strong defenses for people being punished for abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth, and other pregnancy outcomes. Learn more at reprolegaldefensefund.org.
If you have questions about your legal rights, go to reprolegalhelpline.org or call 844 868 2812. Nobody Criminalized is produced by Phantom Center Media and Entertainment for the Repro Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How. Pamela Kirkland is the show's producer, Kojin Tashiro is lead producer and mixed this episode. And remember, keep your community safe and don't talk to cops.