Renee Bracey Sherman wants to shift society’s idea of abortion by sharing real abortion stories. As founder and executive director of WeTestify, an organization working to change the conversation surrounding abortion, she empowers individuals to talk about their decision on their own terms. She speaks with host Rafa Kidvai about her mission and why she thinks abortion is a rejection of patriarchy and white supremacy.
Visit Repro Legal Defense Fund to learn more. Follow Renee on Twitter @RBraceySherman.
If you have questions about your legal rights or access to abortion, go to the Repro Legal Helpline
or call 844-868-2812. If you are being criminalized for something that happened during a pregnancy, go to reprolegaldefensefund.org.
Rafa Kidvai: This is No Body Criminalized, how the state controls our bodies, families, and communities. I'm Rafa Kidvai, director of the Repro Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How. On our podcast, we talk with experts, activists, and advocates whose daily work intersects with reproductive justice and the state's targeting of marginalized communities.
Sister Song, a Reproductive Justice collective led by women of color defines reproductive justice as the human rights to maintain personal bodily autonomy, have children, not have children, and parent the children we have in safe and sustainable communities. You will hear us restate the shared commitment throughout our interviews because regardless of the issues guests focus on, that is ultimately the world we all intend to create.
Our guest today is Renee Bracey Sherman. Renee is the founder and executive director of We Testify, an organization working to change the conversation surrounding abortion and increase the spectrum of abortion storytelling in the public sphere. I spoke to Renee about abortion as a rejection of patriarchy and white supremacy, why reproductive justice is necessary to an anti-racist agenda, and how sharing abortion stories can create a more understanding and compassionate culture.
Renee, it's so great to have you with us. Thank you for joining No Body Criminalized.
Renee Bracey Sherman:
Thanks for having me. I'm really excited.
Kidvai: What do you think is the power of storytelling and why is it important to teach people about how to share their abortion stories? I know that We Testify does a really particular job of prepping people for when they tell stories. Why do you work the way that you work?
Bracey Sherman: We bring storytellers together most importantly and firstly so that they can sit with other people who've had abortions and get to know one another and hear each other's stories and radicalizing them. People aren't necessarily automatically radicalized by having an abortion. It's a bit of healthcare that you need and sometimes it's at a really challenging moment and sometimes it's just something you had to do that day and you just had to get through it and move on. But the beautiful thing is working with folks who've had abortions to be able to radicalize them and it turned them into activists to not only share their stories, but folks who can also radicalize other people who have had abortions and want to talk about it.
And so when we do that, we do a lot of political education training in our workshops about internalized stigma and how sometimes our stories are used by others to stigmatize one another and so that we actually stand together in solidarity in doing that, understanding what is the underlying internalized stigma that we might hold about our own abortions or others. But also really teaching them that their story is their own and they get to decide if, when, and how to share their abortion stories because for a long time, and still in some cases, the repro movement and certainly the anti-abortion movement have exploited abortion stories for gain to use the story to just package it in a way that feels good or serves the organization, but doesn't necessarily serve the person who's having an abortion.
And so we want to make sure that they feel whole in the process and that they get to fully consent in the storytelling process and they get to tell their story on their own terms. They don't get told, "Well, don't tell people that you weren't on birth control." No, it's okay. A lot of people are on birth control and they have their abortions. A lot of people are. "Don't tell people that this is your second or third or fourth abortion." No, it's okay. Actually, most people who have abortions have more than one. "Frame it in from your abortion story in a certain way." Well, no, frame it in the way that feels good for you and the message that you wish you had heard right before you had your abortion.
And so we really want to make sure that abortion storytellers have that power. It's really critical in a moment like this where abortion stories can be considered a confession or can be used and exploited in a way to harm someone's safety and security and freedom. And so we want to make sure that people really feel like they're able to share their stories on their own terms when they're ready and that they're safe and supported when they do so.
Kidvai: How does the fear of judgment and stigma really keep people from sharing their stories?
Bracey Sherman: I think the stigma is put on us by all of the systems that are in play, racism, white supremacy, patriarchy, misogyny, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then from under that is also homophobia, transphobia, anti-immigrant sentiment, ableism, all of those things it really shows up. And so when somebody shares their abortion story, one, an abortion story is usually not adhering to the norm because it's like, "Don't talk about that." But then when they're talking about it and saying that, "Yes, I'm someone who's disabled and I had an abortion and here's why." Or, "I am of a non-Christian religion and here's my experience and I actually felt supported by the folks in my faith community," and that sort of goes against the narrative, people get attacked for that. We often hear, I'm pro-choice but I don't want you to celebrate it."
It's wild that the automatic assumption or reaction or belief that someone sharing an abortion story is a celebration is kind of nuts because people want to share their abortion stories and celebrate that. That's great. They should be able to do that. But it is interesting that even talking about it and breaking the silence on it and pushing back against the stigma is automatically seen as wrong, or celebrated, and that's celebrated is a bad thing.
If somebody's making a good decision for themselves, their bodies, their families, their futures, whatever, a good health decision, that's fine. They should be able to celebrate it all they want. Why can't we do that for abortion? And it is because of the way in which it's believed that the default is that when you become pregnant, you will continue that pregnancy and continue it through birth and you're just supposed to be happy about it. And anything outside of that, whether you end the pregnancy in a different way, miscarriage or an abortion, you keep that to yourself. Or if something goes wrong with the pregnancy, you don't really talk about it. You place for adoption. "Don't really talk about that. Keep that a secret." And it's different if people feel like they would like to keep that for themselves and don't want to share that, that's fine. But to be clear, it's the societal expectation that tells you, "Don't talk about that. Don't tell anyone." We're so focused on silencing the individual instead of asking, "Why are people being treated this way when they share their truths?"
Kidvai: You wrote about abortion as a rejection of patriarchy, white supremacy, and oppression. Tell me why you think about it that way.
Bracey Sherman: There's a really fantastic book, Work Won't Love You Back by Sarah Jaffe. In it, she goes into talking about socialism and the larger conversations about capitalism and how capitalism sort of demands that people's bodies constantly be producing resources and capital and whatever a little trinket and widget it is, you have to continue to have more workers because you burn out the other workers. And so you need a class of people that continue to create more workers. And until we have just robots that just do all the things, those workers are people. So you need a class of people to just literally birth more workers. That's what happened during slavery where it was the Chato slavery of just pushing people to continue to birth more, one, so you could gain more crops and more money and just have more people property and have a larger plantations, but also because they would wear them out and they'd kill them, and so they'd need more, right?
So if you think of reproduction as this piece of labor, refusing to engage in this production of labor of capital and saying, "No, I will do it on my own terms, when I want to, when I feel like it," that I think is a huge rejection of this white supremacist system that basically says that Black bodies are for labor production. I think the other piece of it is it is really radical to say that "I would like to be able to have sex, enjoy sex and not procreate from that." You'll see from a lot of anti-abortion organizations, there's a lot of this language of sexist for procreation. Well, if you just stop having sex, you won't need abortions. But the larger issue there is this belief that sex is specifically for procreation. So enjoying sex, pleasure, having all of that fun is an affront to that as a belief. And abortion allows you to be able to have sex for pleasure and fun and reject it. But also being able to decide, again, what happens to your own body is extremely pushing back on just general capitalism that wants you to work constantly.
And the last piece of it I'll say is that you'll see a lot of anti-abortion folks who kind of go on and on and on about, you should only have as many kids as you can afford. Well, if people don't have money because they're being exploited in the labor force, then they can't have children. But then you're only having sex for procreation, so then that means you can't have sex. So then I guess what? Poor people can't have sex and are not deserving of pleasure? It's an entire system. And so I actually believe that abortion is one of those ways that you actually get to take control of this hamster wheel that you're just in and say, "No, I actually would like to be able to have sex for pleasure and joy."
Kidvai: I also was thinking about how when people are incarcerated. There's such control around whether you can have consensual sex or not because you inherently are being punished for this alleged wrongdoing, and therefore you are not deserving of any of the sort of space to feel pleasure or relief or any of the things that I think come with sex.
Bracey Sherman: Right. And if you think about it, when folks are incarcerated, they don't have control over their own bodies, right? You're at the will of the entire in carceral system obviously, but then also the sexual whims and violence of the guards, right? And so then people become pregnant while incarcerated. And so some will ask for abortions because they didn't want to continue the pregnancy however they became pregnant. It's actually really difficult for them to be able to get an abortion as they need. And then they do get the abortion, it's at their own expense in most cases, so they often end up not doing that and then just the way in which the system doesn't want to punish the innocent baby so they're like, "Okay, great, you had this baby. We'll have you in this incubation system for a little bit and then the baby goes to the outside," but the parent is still in a cage and it's just like they're okay with this family separation.
There's no question about, "How did somebody become pregnant? How do we actually make sure that this person has the care that they need? How can they care for their children?" It is just like an interest in keeping a body in a cage where then they're, again, continue susceptible to more sexual violence and also they have to work on extremely low wages. Then they end up making more babies who then are being cared for on the outside who are then going to be criminalized. And it's just like a system of people just coming in and out of jails. It's really upsetting and terrifying.
A couple of our We Testify storytellers are formerly incarcerated. One of them has written several articles about her experience of learning that she was pregnant while incarcerated and asking for an abortion and being denied that abortion and being forced to continue their pregnancy and the way in which she was also then denied food. I was going to say prenatal care obviously, but also just basic food and having to split meals with other folks who are incarcerated and sleeping on hard floors. It's really sad. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. And you're saying like, "I don't want to be pregnant in this situation. Can I have an abortion?" They won't give you that either.
Kidvai: I think something that I think about a lot is how uncomfortable we are with just saying the word abortion or talking about abortion generally regardless of the context.
Bracey Sherman: My favorite is a woman's constitutionally protected right under Roe v. Wade. Just say abortion, my God. But it's accepted because people say, "Oh, don't talk about abortion in a polite company." But in pro-choice politicians, even their phrasing, of using pro-choice, they're very intentional in saying that because they chose that word over pro-abortion because they felt it was too in your face. But also the anti-abortion movement says the word abortion all the time. They just repeat it constantly, right? And people who have abortions know that they need an abortion. And so when you avoid saying the word, there's this assumption that there's something dirty about it and that you shouldn't be talking about it. They've been able to use abortion to constantly just gut and gut and gut and gut it, right? But people didn't pay attention because it was about abortion. And if you can destroy the right to privacy and the right to one's own bodies and future and families and livelihoods, well then what do you have left?
Kidvai: Absolutely. And I think something that we remind our listeners every episode is don't talk to cops. Why is it important to actually be pushing a separate conversation about not talking to the police in the abortion space?
Bracey Sherman: All we have to do is look back at our history. When abortion was criminalized between the 1800s and 1973, who did those raids? Who arrested the docs? Who took kicking and screaming, picked up by their arms and legs, the people who are having the abortions, dragging them out of the apartments and out of the "illegal abortion clinics"? The police. They're not on your side. They've never been on your side. I mean, we've had stories for years of police standing outside of abortion clinics and doing their "protection work," right? And then as soon as they're on their lunch break, go join the anti-abortion side because the role of the police is to keep law and order and to protect property and to protect power and money.
As I was explaining earlier, abortion is a rejection of that power and that money and that white supremacy, right? Because it's saying, "We are not going to create more capital. We're not going to create more workers on your terms." And at the end of the day, they will always side with white supremacists because they want conformity, they want people to continue along. Their job is to, whatever somebody does, find a crime in that. And so they're jumping to find a crime in the termination of a pregnancy. They're jumping to arrest people for dispensing medication without a license. It's a self-managed abortion. Taking medication without a prescription, it's also self-managed as people get criminalized for the outcomes of their pregnancies. They literally still keep their jobs. They want to be part of that system.
And again, this brings it back to the larger conversation about stories. When people feel free to share their stories, that's really wonderful, but the scary piece is that that can so quickly become considered a crime.
Kidvai: Absolutely. And then on the other hand, I think about your work to end abortion stigma as being really meaningful in a fight to end criminalization because when we think something is wrong, we think it should be punishable. Do you see We Testify's work to end abortion stigma is connected to the fight to end the criminalization of pregnancy outcomes?
Bracey Sherman: Obviously. You can't have an organization that is dedicated to Black and brown people having abortions without talking about racial justice and being anti-cop. Let's say there was laws that you cannot criminalize somebody for the outcomes of their pregnancies. People are still being criminalized for existing. I think you can't just support someone in their journey to access an abortion and then not support them when they're being stopped and frisked down the street as they're just living their lives. These things are all connected. It shouldn't matter whether or not they were on the way to the abortion clinic when they got stopped and frisked. It shouldn't matter whether or not they were criminalized for the outcomes of their pregnancy. You should be against people being put in jails and cages and arrested and violated and losing their freedom overall. It feels especially important now that in so many places, abortion is considered a crime.
We work with storytellers who have self-managed their abortions. And so in the eyes of the law, they're criminals. I do not believe that. And so I think that the way in which people can be quickly dehumanized is by just labeling them as criminals, and then you can write them off. I won't let people do that for really anyone, but my little group of people to organize is people who have abortions. And so I want people to really understand that on the other side of making abortion illegal, it isn't, "Oh, well, once it's illegal and once Roe v. Wade's overturned, they'll just stop getting abortions as I have heard some people who are anti-abortion believe." The only other thing on the other side of making something illegal is criminalization. And so I need you to them to understand that what is happening is that people are going to jail no matter how much the anti-abortion movement lies about it.
When we share our stories, our primary audience is other people who have abortions so that they know that they're not alone. The secondary is the people who love us so that they understand that everyone loves someone who's had an abortion. And a person who is criminalized for the outcome of their pregnancies, while you may not know that person and their name is just a name and a headline, they are a stand-in for someone that you love and care for. And a lot of people love and care for that person too. And so we need to keep all of us out of jail.
Kidvai: So you gave very powerful and personal testimony on Capitol Hill during a hearing about the end of Roe versus Wade. Why did you decide to use that opportunity to explain the self-managing and of medication abortion?
Bracey Sherman: I actually didn't think that I was going to testify. We always put up an abortion storyteller, and so I'm usually in the seat sitting behind them. I had not testified before, but my name was put up. At the end of the day, you can talk to politicians. But they already have their mind made up. So I was thinking about it and it was like, "What is it that the public needs to hear?" And as I always tell the storytellers when they're thinking about what to share, I say, "Well, just tell what you would've needed to hear right before you had your abortion." And so I stuck to that.
Right before I had my abortion, I maxed out a credit card to pay for it and I wasn't sure I was going to be able to stay pregnant up until the time that I had an appointment. It just felt so long. I was really feeling a lot of stress and anguish about being pregnant. And so I used some unsafe methods and thought about other unsafe methods to try to cause a miscarriage as I knew at the time they didn't work. So I felt like, "Yeah, here. You don't have to do what I did. You don't have to drink an obnoxious amount of alcohol. You don't have to think about throwing yourself down the stairs. You actually can simply take these pills and it's very, very safe."
So honestly, I wasn't really thinking about anything. They literally told me that I made history and all this other stuff. I wasn't thinking about that at all. I was literally just thinking about what is the biggest impact with this five minutes that I'm being given and how can I reach someone, like 19 year old Renee, who's out there?
Kidvai: Oh, I love that so much. I love that you were grounded really in making abortions more accessible and safer and the experience better for people. My last question for you really is about the name of this podcast, which is No Body Criminalized. What does the phrase No Body Criminalized mean to you?
Bracey Sherman: It means that we are headed towards or building a world where we don't have police, no one is living in cages, and people can walk down the street or drive their cars or just exist free without having to have that scary jolt every time they see a police car drive past them or pull off and sit behind them for a long time, or a police officer walking in their direction. That fear is very real. That everyone just gets to live their lives freely and not feel that that fear that something is going to happen to them because of the carceral state and the way that we treat people who are different than ourselves.
Kidvai: Thank you for that. It's been a pleasure having you on the show, Renee.
Bracey Sherman: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Kidvai: Let's reflect on some of what Renee shared. Renee believes activists sharing their abortion stories allow people who've had abortions to build community and stand in solidarity together. The stories are their own and they should be free to determine how their story is told. Many people face significant barriers to accessing abortion care and sharing their experiences. Renee believes that everyone should be able to share their abortion story without fear of harm, loss of safety or security, or loss of freedom. Finally, we must speak openly and honestly about abortion, and that includes by actively using the word abortion.
Renee Bracey Sherman is the founder and executive director of We Testify. You can find her on Twitter at @RBraceySherman. I'm Rafa Kidvai, the host of the podcast and director of the Repro Legal Defense Fund If/When/How. The Repro Legal Defense Fund funds bail and strong defenses for anyone criminalized for something that happens during pregnancy. Learn more at reprolegaldefensefund.org. If you have questions about your legal rights, go to reprolegalhelpline.org or call 844-868-2812. No Body Criminalized is produced by LWC Studios for the Repro Legal Defense Fund If/When/How. Sage Carson and Jen Girdish are the media and marketing team at If/When/How. Pamela Kirkland is the show's producer. Paulina Velasco is the managing producer at LWC Studios. Kojin Tashiro is lead producer and mixed this episode.
And remember, keep your community safe and don't talk to cops.
CITATION:
Kidvai, Rafa, host. “Unapologetic Abortion Storytelling.” No Body Criminalized, Repro Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How. April 24, 2023. Reprolegaldefensefund.org.